Comments on: The death of death… http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/ the vague ramblings of the Revd. Fr. Edward Tomlinson SSC...... Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:28:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Margaret Stirling http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-9364 Margaret Stirling Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:42:18 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-9364 In reading the many differing views in response to 'the death of death' article by Fr. Edward Tomlinson I feel as though I am responding to a 'survey' and perhaps this is exactly what this is, or at least what it has become. The truth is that in 'airing' our thoughts publicly, we leave ourselves open to the opinion of many, particularly when those thoughts are presented as factual. Fine, if you are of the same school of thinking, but extremely offensive if you are not. Can we at least find some common intelligent ground here based on actual facts of historical value. I'm sure most people are aware that the church as an institution is 'man made' The council of Nicaea AD 325 created the story as we have it today in a bid to control the masses. If we do our study and it's all there to read, the slaughtering of human beings was common practice if they would not honour an image or 'buy into the new story' be they child or adult it was of no consequence. The gadgets used to force people into submission were horrendous, who wouldn't agree to anything when your in agony and fear for your own and your families lives. We don't have to submit to those bullying tactics today do we? As has already been said, religion creates segregation, not unity. We have read of people who maim or kill for supporting a differing football team, religious fundamentalists who hurt and murder for their belief. In definition, is this not the ego in control. Why is religion about us and them. What happened to the love one another maxim of well known prophets and seers throughout history. What prophet has ever said they are a member of a particular religion? We just don't 'get it' Like children in the playground the ego wants to be bigger or better or totally right. Sir, I'm glad you find the liturgy of the requiem mass gorgeous, and your belief of a resurrection as a result, and I'm glad for those who read a letter from Nan or play their most meaningful tunes, because to them this is natural and from the heart, that is love in a most personal way. Surely these very personalised services cannot amount to platitudes which means something so recycled it's uninteresting. Have you thought how painful your words of condemnation could be to those who "did it their way' Please be very clear to all, does the church still wish to control souls by broadcasting fear in the 'business of death' if we don't do it your way. Are you intimating we are then lost in some state of purgatory? If you do feel so spiritually unwanted, perhaps it may be you who needs to contemplate the nature of mans needs in a modern society. Your words do come over somewhat angry and pious, sadly this is what we see when we wholeheartedly believe we have the right and only way, which is most unattractive and does little to endear. The inquisition I thought was over but it seems bigotry is alive and well, I suppose that makes the majority of free thinkers heretics. Sir, we accept that you believe your god given time is precious elsewhere, but would it not be better spent praying for those hundreds of thousands of souls who were slaughtered by the church on our ancient shores, and the thousands of souls here and abroad who fought (and still do) in battles and were 'blown' to pieces having no physical body to bury or cremate. These people didn't have the required mass or words uttered by a man in a costume, are they too trapped for eternity in a broken world or does one prayer do for all? as long as someone like you utters it? Do you actually really know anything about the transition called death and please Sir, be honest, as your words do have an impact on some people, remember your personal responsibility which only you can answer to on your transition following in your words, the oven. (what images does this leave in the mind of a parent who has just cremated their child's body) Believe it or not Sir you or the church do not have the monopoly on death any more than you understand the concept of such a natural process. Thankfully like so many, I found freedom when I took Jesus off the cross, and broke the chains of the bible and it's true, the kingdom really is within, we only have to be good to ourselves and others, if we can't, it may be due to ill thought out politics creating havoc with the deluded nanny state fraternity. I once read that a tree is known by it's fruit and Sir I really believe the grapes have become sour. I hope you find what your really looking for, and judge not .................. anymore perhaps. (apologies to those who find this term oven upsetting, I wish only to highlight the insensitive poorly thought our content of this article) In reading the many differing views in response to ‘the death of death’ article by Fr. Edward Tomlinson I feel as though I am responding to a ’survey’ and perhaps this is exactly what this is, or at least what it has become. The truth is that in ‘airing’ our thoughts publicly, we leave ourselves open to the opinion of many, particularly when those thoughts are presented as factual. Fine, if you are of the same school of thinking, but extremely offensive if you are not.
Can we at least find some common intelligent ground here based on actual facts of historical value. I’m sure most people are aware that the church as an institution is ‘man made’ The council of Nicaea AD 325 created the story as we have it today in a bid to control the masses. If we do our study and it’s all there to read, the slaughtering of human beings was common practice if they would not honour an image or ‘buy into the new story’ be they child or adult it was of no consequence. The gadgets used to force people into submission were horrendous, who wouldn’t agree to anything when your in agony and fear for your own and your families lives.
We don’t have to submit to those bullying tactics today do we?
As has already been said, religion creates segregation, not unity. We have read of people who maim or kill for supporting a differing football team, religious fundamentalists who hurt and murder for their belief. In definition, is this not the ego in control. Why is religion about us and them. What happened to the love one another maxim of well known prophets and seers throughout history. What prophet has ever said they are a member of a particular religion? We just don’t ‘get it’ Like children in the playground the ego wants to be bigger or better or totally right.
Sir, I’m glad you find the liturgy of the requiem mass gorgeous, and your belief of a resurrection as a result, and I’m glad for those who read a letter from Nan or play their most meaningful tunes, because to them this is natural and from the heart, that is love in a most personal way. Surely these very personalised services cannot amount to platitudes which means something so recycled it’s uninteresting. Have you thought how painful your words of condemnation could be to those who “did it their way’ Please be very clear to all, does the church still wish to control souls by broadcasting fear in the ‘business of death’ if we don’t do it your way. Are you intimating we are then lost in some state of purgatory? If you do feel so spiritually unwanted, perhaps it may be you who needs to contemplate the nature of mans needs in a modern society. Your words do come over somewhat angry and pious, sadly this is what we see when we wholeheartedly believe we have the right and only way, which is most unattractive and does little to endear. The inquisition I thought was over but it seems bigotry is alive and well, I suppose that makes the majority of free thinkers heretics.
Sir, we accept that you believe your god given time is precious elsewhere, but would it not be better spent praying for those hundreds of thousands of souls who were slaughtered by the church on our ancient shores, and the thousands of souls here and abroad who fought (and still do) in battles and were ‘blown’ to pieces having no physical body to bury or cremate. These people didn’t have the required mass or words uttered by a man in a costume, are they too trapped for eternity in a broken world or does one prayer do for all? as long as someone like you utters it?
Do you actually really know anything about the transition called death and please Sir, be honest, as your words do have an impact on some people, remember your personal responsibility which only you can answer to on your transition following in your words, the oven. (what images does this leave in the mind of a parent who has just cremated their child’s body)
Believe it or not Sir you or the church do not have the monopoly on death any more than you understand the concept of such a natural process.
Thankfully like so many, I found freedom when I took Jesus off the cross, and broke the chains of the bible and it’s true, the kingdom really is within, we only have to be good to ourselves and others, if we can’t, it may be due to ill thought out politics creating havoc with the deluded nanny state fraternity.
I once read that a tree is known by it’s fruit and Sir I really believe the grapes have become sour.
I hope you find what your really looking for, and judge not ……………… anymore perhaps.

(apologies to those who find this term oven upsetting, I wish only to highlight the insensitive poorly thought our content of this article)

]]> By: Adrian J German http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-9203 Adrian J German Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:06:28 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-9203 I understand your feelings. May God bless you in His work and give you strength and encouragement as you do His bidding. Kepp up the blog and the good work. Best wishes. Adrian I understand your feelings. May God bless you in His work and give you strength and encouragement as you do His bidding. Kepp up the blog and the good work. Best wishes. Adrian

]]> By: Schoppenkoning http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-9104 Schoppenkoning Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:25:37 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-9104 Thanks for this sincere blog! In the Netherlands, this has become exactly the same. I am a Roman-Catholic Dutch parish priest, sometimes feeling like betraying our Lord, spending the Holy Communion during funeral masses, to people having absolutely no clue of Whom we are celebrating. Christ? Who cares! If only I can have the music I want to hear, if only I can tell the gathered 'believers' how great my dear... was, how human. Eternal life? I can preach like Saint Augustine, and nobody listens. Praying together for the soul of the deceased? Who wants to pray in a church? Most celebrations I am the only one praying. No response at all. Even the Lords Prayer is not known anymore - at least, if they would have known, why wouldn't they join me praying? I published a blog yesterday about the same subject (in Dutch) and I feel sad at times, because I feel responsable for my parishioners. Unfortunately, even our bishops do absolutely nothing about it. Sacrilege everwhere, and nobody seems to be upset. How is this possible? Is nobody fearing God? I don't get it. However, it's the Church of our Lord, and even when I feel guilty and unworthy, I know HIS love for me and His Chuch will not diminish. I'm just a servant. Even when I feel at times a bit uncomfortable thinking about once meeting him as my Judge, I will just say: mea culpa, miserere mei... Like I pray every day for the souls waiting for Heavens door, while nobody prays for them... I made my will a couple of years ago. I wrote in it: no flowers, no speeches, just Holy Masses. A lot of Holy Masses. Weird feeling that we priests should need that. But it's true. We will need the prayers of the Church and the Redemption of Jesus like everybody else. Even more maybe, because we are ordained and responsable. Pray for us, we will pray for you. Thanks for this sincere blog!
In the Netherlands, this has become exactly the same. I am a Roman-Catholic Dutch parish priest, sometimes feeling like betraying our Lord, spending the Holy Communion during funeral masses, to people having absolutely no clue of Whom we are celebrating. Christ? Who cares! If only I can have the music I want to hear, if only I can tell the gathered ‘believers’ how great my dear… was, how human. Eternal life? I can preach like Saint Augustine, and nobody listens. Praying together for the soul of the deceased? Who wants to pray in a church? Most celebrations I am the only one praying. No response at all. Even the Lords Prayer is not known anymore – at least, if they would have known, why wouldn’t they join me praying?

I published a blog yesterday about the same subject (in Dutch) and I feel sad at times, because I feel responsable for my parishioners. Unfortunately, even our bishops do absolutely nothing about it. Sacrilege everwhere, and nobody seems to be upset. How is this possible? Is nobody fearing God? I don’t get it. However, it’s the Church of our Lord, and even when I feel guilty and unworthy, I know HIS love for me and His Chuch will not diminish. I’m just a servant. Even when I feel at times a bit uncomfortable thinking about once meeting him as my Judge, I will just say: mea culpa, miserere mei… Like I pray every day for the souls waiting for Heavens door, while nobody prays for them…
I made my will a couple of years ago. I wrote in it: no flowers, no speeches, just Holy Masses. A lot of Holy Masses. Weird feeling that we priests should need that. But it’s true. We will need the prayers of the Church and the Redemption of Jesus like everybody else. Even more maybe, because we are ordained and responsable.

Pray for us, we will pray for you.

]]> By: Paolo Sabbatucci (Italy) http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8938 Paolo Sabbatucci (Italy) Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:56:25 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8938 If you don't believe in God, then a Christian funeral is a complete nonsense (and all not-believers should pretend a "secular funeral", without involving a priest). But those who believe in God (and, specifically, Jesus Christ) should pretend a "fully Christian funeral", something which should not include profane/secular music or quotations from singers / artists / actors, etc.. Jazz music, or any other "light" music, including most of classical music, was NOT written for performance at religious ceremonies, but for "everyday life" (including sad moments, yes, but not an important and special ceremony like a funeral). Would you play funeral music at your wedding ? Would you wear a formal dinner jacket if invited to see a sport match ? Would you sing any song during a university test in maths ? Would you give your fiancée an engagement ring made up with rusty iron ? Some specific situations require some specific rules, no more no less. In the case of Christian funerals these rules have centuries of life behind (and our ancestors were not all stupid...). The mere pleasure for "innovation" is not a good reason to throw away these rules. On the contrary: when you repeat old religious rites - the same of our fathers - every gentle person can feel a sense of peace, strenght and warmth which should make those moments better and more meaningful, sad or joyful as they are (= funerals or weddings, for instance). All my congratulations to Fr. Edward for his frankness and...courage (sad to say). If you don’t believe in God, then a Christian funeral is a complete nonsense (and all not-believers should pretend a “secular funeral”, without involving a priest). But those who believe in God (and, specifically, Jesus Christ) should pretend a “fully Christian funeral”, something which should not include profane/secular music or quotations from singers / artists / actors, etc.. Jazz music, or any other “light” music, including most of classical music, was NOT written for performance at religious ceremonies, but for “everyday life” (including sad moments, yes, but not an important and special ceremony like a funeral). Would you play funeral music at your wedding ? Would you wear a formal dinner jacket if invited to see a sport match ? Would you sing any song during a university test in maths ? Would you give your fiancée an engagement ring made up with rusty iron ? Some specific situations require some specific rules, no more no less. In the case of Christian funerals these rules have centuries of life behind (and our ancestors were not all stupid…). The mere pleasure for “innovation” is not a good reason to throw away these rules. On the contrary: when you repeat old religious rites – the same of our fathers – every gentle person can feel a sense of peace, strenght and warmth which should make those moments better and more meaningful, sad or joyful as they are (= funerals or weddings, for instance). All my congratulations to Fr. Edward for his frankness and…courage (sad to say).

]]> By: Administrator http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8908 Administrator Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:59:39 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8908 Oh Paul Smith, thank you for pointing out my faults. If only I oculd be as reasonable, measured, generous, understanding and liberal as you! How clear it all is now! I am the narrow minded bigot but you- in writing off the entire contribution of the Church to history, culture, charity and education are the enlightened one. Silly old me.... Oh Paul Smith, thank you for pointing out my faults.

If only I oculd be as reasonable, measured, generous, understanding and liberal as you! How clear it all is now! I am the narrow minded bigot but you- in writing off the entire contribution of the Church to history, culture, charity and education are the enlightened one. Silly old me….

]]> By: Paul Smith http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8907 Paul Smith Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:51:16 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8907 You bet you are unwanted. Your irrational thoughts and brainwashing of innocent people with your vile religious beliefs are very much unwanted. The sooner you see the damage that all reigion is doing to this world and start contributing positively to society the sooner the world will be a better place. That someone with your lack of rational seeks to lead other people is sickening and should not be allowed. That you are allowed to post your sickening views in public places is an abomination. Yes you are very unwanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You bet you are unwanted. Your irrational thoughts and brainwashing of innocent people with your vile religious beliefs are very much unwanted.

The sooner you see the damage that all reigion is doing to this world and start contributing positively to society the sooner the world will be a better place.

That someone with your lack of rational seeks to lead other people is sickening and should not be allowed. That you are allowed to post your sickening views in public places is an abomination.

Yes you are very unwanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

]]> By: Does it really matter anyway? http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8843 Does it really matter anyway? Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:45:05 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8843 I love how people like to put god into a nice little box. That they can 'interpret' archaic texts and essentially custom make their own list of rules that people have to abide by. Its all pointless crap anyway. What really gets my goat is that people love to tell me how I should live my life. Like Christopher Hitchens I believe that people are free to believe in whatever stupid ideas they like BUT they need to leave me and my children alone, why do they have to ram their ideas down other people's throats? Just let the peaceful be. If the world were free of religion it would be a much better place, that is for damned sure I love how people like to put god into a nice little box. That they can ‘interpret’ archaic texts and essentially custom make their own list of rules that people have to abide by. Its all pointless crap anyway.
What really gets my goat is that people love to tell me how I should live my life. Like Christopher Hitchens I believe that people are free to believe in whatever stupid ideas they like BUT they need to leave me and my children alone, why do they have to ram their ideas down other people’s throats? Just let the peaceful be.
If the world were free of religion it would be a much better place, that is for damned sure

]]> By: Stephen http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8832 Stephen Mon, 26 Oct 2009 04:00:24 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8832 In africa certain tribes believe that witches meet at midnight and kill their animals. In certain dubious places in the middle east about 1800 years ago a few strange people came up with the idea that a man was born to a virgin mother, walked on water, died once during his life (without the "CLEAR!" machine to assist) and if you grovel to the pompous white people that still believe in this some invisible part of you will go to live with them and the other pompous white people. Oh and in south America they put pins in dolls and kill people by remote. I wonder if they go to the pompus white man's heaven? or the hell? Of maybe the pompus white men might end up in the witches roasting table, but then again they might be dead from pins! All religion is so ridiculous, absurd and frankly embarrassing that modern folk even entertain the idea. Oh yeah, and the guy's father, well he can knows what all human beings think at all times. But he appears to have only taken an interest in the last 4000 years - before that we're not sure - maybe we were soulless! Maybe as mammals we just died. Surely not! And as he apparently said to that bronze age lunatic Moses - don't have any gods before me. So maybe the people with the witches and pins are on to something - maybe they are the other gods that Moses mentioned to his tribe. Now, I'm being a bit harsh I know. The pompous white men don't believe in the other gods, that's a great start - in fact it's progress. The only difference then is we've both stopped believing in all the various gods - except the pompous white man is still hanging in there with that really petty vindictive and jealous (he said it not me!) god. Imagine it: you have all the powers to control everything that exists - makes google and the space hubble seem, well puny, but you're still jealous. Sad little man I'd say! Better off stuck in the ground that grovelling to such a small minded thing for a long long time (for ever he reckons)! Stephen (white man) In africa certain tribes believe that witches meet at midnight and kill their animals. In certain dubious places in the middle east about 1800 years ago a few strange people came up with the idea that a man was born to a virgin mother, walked on water, died once during his life (without the “CLEAR!” machine to assist) and if you grovel to the pompous white people that still believe in this some invisible part of you will go to live with them and the other pompous white people. Oh and in south America they put pins in dolls and kill people by remote. I wonder if they go to the pompus white man’s heaven? or the hell? Of maybe the pompus white men might end up in the witches roasting table, but then again they might be dead from pins! All religion is so ridiculous, absurd and frankly embarrassing that modern folk even entertain the idea. Oh yeah, and the guy’s father, well he can knows what all human beings think at all times. But he appears to have only taken an interest in the last 4000 years – before that we’re not sure – maybe we were soulless! Maybe as mammals we just died. Surely not! And as he apparently said to that bronze age lunatic Moses – don’t have any gods before me. So maybe the people with the witches and pins are on to something – maybe they are the other gods that Moses mentioned to his tribe. Now, I’m being a bit harsh I know. The pompous white men don’t believe in the other gods, that’s a great start – in fact it’s progress. The only difference then is we’ve both stopped believing in all the various gods – except the pompous white man is still hanging in there with that really petty vindictive and jealous (he said it not me!) god. Imagine it: you have all the powers to control everything that exists – makes google and the space hubble seem, well puny, but you’re still jealous. Sad little man I’d say! Better off stuck in the ground that grovelling to such a small minded thing for a long long time (for ever he reckons)! Stephen (white man)

]]> By: Administrator http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8826 Administrator Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:46:37 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8826 not if you read the Gospel where we are told that, far from being puny humans God loves us with an everlasting love and will grant what we ask in his name not if you read the Gospel where we are told that, far from being puny humans God loves us with an everlasting love and will grant what we ask in his name

]]> By: Eshu http://sbarnabas.com/blog/2009/10/05/the-death-of-death/comment-page-2/#comment-8823 Eshu Sun, 25 Oct 2009 18:12:04 +0000 http://sbarnabas.com/blog/?p=1578#comment-8823 <blockquote>The reason I promote Christian funerals is because they encourage prayer for the departed. this means we are asking God to <strong>forgive sins</strong>, heal pain and gather the departed and those who mourn close to his sacred heart. (emphasis mine)</blockquote> What a strange idea. To think that the prayers of puny humans could cause an all-knowing being with a perfect plan to <strong>change His mind</strong> about forgiving sins, is rather odd, is it not?

The reason I promote Christian funerals is because they encourage prayer for the departed. this means we are asking God to forgive sins, heal pain and gather the departed and those who mourn close to his sacred heart. (emphasis mine)

What a strange idea. To think that the prayers of puny humans could cause an all-knowing being with a perfect plan to change His mind about forgiving sins, is rather odd, is it not?

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