Yesterday I attended the first day of the Forward in Faith assembly in London. There was a very healthy number in attendance and, perhaps unsurprisingly, attention was focussed on the impact and consequence of the Pope’s wonderful gesture of love which is intended to provide faithful Anglo-Catholics with a true spiritual home. You may listen to all that was said here courtesy of the FIF website.
In some ways I was surprised by the muted response and manner in which fear not joy was the over-riding emotion. But I think this is due to the fact that we are all shell-shocked, so surprising was the news from the Vatican!! Furthermore there is an understanding that we enter new waters, whatever happens life will never be the same, and this is understandably unsettling. Do listen to the devotional address by +Lindsay, it was superb.
The most amusing moment yesterday came courtesy of +John, who was in fine form, when he warned us to be careful in our considerations and responses. We must not, he said, delight in Vaticana’s flirting simply because we hope it will gain us more attention from our old love Synodica! Nor must we dance off into the night with Vaticana and ignore our duty to Synodica! We must ensure that we deal with both Vaticana and Synodica from a place of genuine integrity. And that is why this is very much a time of prayer and deep thinking. A time of watching, waiting and discerning. I was grateful to Fr. Sam Philpot for reminding us all, that above anything else we must listen to the Holy Spirit. We must ask where is God guiding us as we seek to be faithful to his call in the 21st Century.
There are three big “ifs” here. Whether clergy go to Rome, whether their congregations follow, and whether they will get to keep their buildings. No doubt some clergy will go, but converting to Roman Catholicism will be a bridge too far for the majority in the pews, even in Forward in Faith churches. As to the buildings, it is very unlikely the C of E will hand these over. At this point – and I can well imagine this happening at S. Barnabas – we will discover just how important bricks and mortar are, to Anglo Catholics in particular.
As several people have said, things will never be the same again after this. Having received this offer from Rome, those who decide to stay really will have to put up or shut up. And clergy and congregations who leave their churches behind will have to accept that these buildings will stay within the Church of England. Heaven forbid, one day they may even be used by women priests.
Synodica & Vaticana
Thanks for your input Father. I took time to listen to the key address of the Bishop of Chichester. I could not agree more with the last section of your blog:” Above anything else, we must listen to the Holy Spirit”
Blessings,
Father Ed Bakker SSM
TAC New Zealand
Rod the choice is not what you suggest. We are NOT being invited to become RC, rather to remain what we are, orthodox Anglican Catholics. What is offered is to grant us RC sanctuary because the synod has bee too mean to do so. We would be a Uniate church, uttery Anglican and utterly catholic whose orders were recognized by Rome. Much will be in the small print so we can say little more for now. As to buildings it is far from straight forward. S B for example was built with tractarian money and has been faithful to Catholic ideals. Furthermore it had been paid for by the congregation and not the central church. It would make an intersting case one hopes it never Comes to that. I think the majority of our congregtion will be interested to at least explore the options. I am very mindful ofthe minorty, like yourself, who do not. That is why we must go slowly and sensitvely
“We are NOT being invited to become RC, rather to remain what we are, orthodox Anglican Catholics. What is offered is to grant us RC sanctuary because the synod has bee too mean to do so. We would be a Uniate church, uttery Anglican and utterly catholic whose orders were recognized by Rome.”
What fantasy world are you living in? Of course you are being invited to become RC – this will explicitly NOT be a Uniate Church, otherwise the Holy See would have declared it as such. You will not be ‘utterly Anglican’ since you will no longer be in communion with the See of Canterbury – in any case just what will distinguish you as ‘Anglican’? Most of you already use the Roman Missal and Breviary anyway. The irony is that you may well have to give these up for more ‘Anglican’ forms. As to your orders being recognised – where do you get that from? Not only are your orders currently not recognised, neither is your confirmation. You will have to be confirmed into the RC Church and then eventually, but no guarantees, ordained into the RC priesthood. Are you ready to deny that you were ever ordained as a Catholic priest? Your Roman fever needs a dose of cold reality.
“We are NOT being invited to become RC, rather to remain what we are, orthodox Anglican Catholics. What is offered is to grant us RC sanctuary because the synod has bee too mean to do so. We would be a Uniate church, uttery Anglican and utterly catholic whose orders were recognized by Rome.”
Really, what fantasy world are you currently living in? Of course you are being invited to become RC – this will explicitly NOT be a Uniate Church, otherwise the Holy See would have declared it as such. You will not be ‘utterly Anglican’ since you will no longer be in communion with the See of Canterbury – in any case just what will distinguish you as ‘Anglican’? Most of you already use the Roman Missal and Breviary anyway. The irony is that you may well have to give these up for more ‘Anglican’ forms. What an odd choice – stay in the CoE and continue using Roman forms, or go to the RC and have to use edited Anglican ones. As to your orders being recognised – where do you get that from? Not only are your orders currently not recognised, neither is your confirmation. You will have to be confirmed into the RC Church and then eventually, but no guarantees, ordained into the RC priesthood. Are you ready to deny that you were ever ordained as a Catholic priest? Your Roman fever needs a dose of cold reality.
When I say we will be Anglican I refer to the fact the patrimony remains in place. Our history and character will be valued and upheld. I say the difference will be negligable, at my church that is true we have long been mire catholic than Anglican
in identity. When I said my orders would be valid I refered to after the way in and if I need
ordiantion into rc hurc for that so be it!
What you should do now, Father Ed., is forget all this, hunker down and support your wife and the baby that it is to come.
Good luck.
Father Ed,
I think you need to realise that the RC church only allows entry to those who accept the whole deal. You will be confirmed and ordained. Are you happy to say now that you are not confirmed or a priest? In that case what are the congregation to think this Sunday when you stand at the altar?
I have been involved in the RC and Anglican churches. In the 90′s I was studying at a famous RC College with several ex Anglican priests who had converted following WO. I can tell you that they suffered greatly from the experience of being treated like laymen, beginners in theology when they knew more than the lecturers, and from having their past loyalties denigrated. Some returned to the CofE. Believe me – it is not an easy path you are considering following. And the congregations and buildings will not follow you.
Anyone for Anglican High Mass in the local Community Centre?
This may be of interest:
Will people then be Roman Catholics? Yes, everyone who belongs to a Personal Ordinariate will be a Roman Catholic in full, visible communion with the Holy See.
Will they still be in communion with Canterbury? No.
Will congregations be able to take their church buildings with them? Probably not. This is not impossible, but legally very difficult, Dr Williams said on Tuesday.
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=83626
(scroll to the bottom of the page for the Q&A)
What is on offer is something new, so comparisons that you make are not helpful. this offer is generous in that it does recognise our ptrimony and identity. furthermore those friends if mine who have gone have had very sensitive inductions. let us not scatter horror stories but wait and watch and pray and be thankful that orthodox Catholics have options for the first time in ages.
Peter and Anglican
If this offer is what you say it is then what was the point? Either, of the Holy Father making it, or the rest of us getting excited about it? You are saying that in effect things are no different to what they were a week ago.
I am confused.
‘Are you happy to say now that you are not confirmed or a priest? In that case what are the congregation to think this Sunday when you stand at the altar?’
That’s a very good question. In point of fact, very few RCs take their reservations about Anglican orders to this absurd extent: one of the few is the present Pope. Need one say more?
I have been listening with interest to the recorded papers delivered at the current FIF Conference. It is not for me to make spiteful comments about them, some edified me, others did not. But, in the end, one of the truest observations came from Fr Kirk when he said that, while in hospital, he heard the news and said, ‘My God, he’s called our bluff’. If nothing else that is what the Pope has succeeded in doing: calling the bluff of those who have used union with Rome as a political bargaining point, even a weapon, without ever believing that it would happen. The saddest of the contributors were the laity, all of whom were completely thrown by the Pope’s initiative and had little idea of how to deal with it beyond, in one case, turning it down. It will be interesting to see in forthcoming months how many PCCs will pass Fr Kirk’s motion.
Peter said:
I think you need to realise that the RC church only allows entry to those who accept the whole deal. You will be confirmed and ordained. Are you happy to say now that you are not confirmed or a priest? In that case what are the congregation to think this Sunday when you stand at the altar?
Perhaps Peter is not aware of what happened at the earlier wave of conversions following the vote of 1992.
Cardinakl Hume said about the conditional ordination of Bishop Grham Leonard to the Roman Catholic priesthood:
In their statement of Nov. 18, 1993, the Catholic bishops of England and Wales said: “We would never suggest that those now seeking full communion with the Roman Catholic Church deny the value of their previous ministry. According to the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, the liturgical actions of their ministry can most certainly engender a life of grace, for they come from Christ and lead back to him and belong by right to the one church of Christ.”
Nonetheless it is necessary to keep in mind that ordination conferred within the Anglican Communion is judged invalid in the apostolic letter Apostolicae Curæ. The value of this letter, given by His Holiness Leo XIII in 1896, has been upheld by the Holy See, even though some important theological clarifications relating to ministry and eucharist have been made by the Anglican Communion.
An exchange of letters between the president of the then-Secretariat for Christian Unity (July 13, 1985) and the two presidents of the second Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission, ARCIC II (Jan. 14, 1986) had expressed the hope that following dialogue and clarification such a unity of faith could be reached in the areas of ministry and eucharist that the way to a re-evaluation of these questions by the Catholic Church would be opened.
Unfortunately this position has not yet been reached. Consequently, since the church must be in no doubt of the validity of the sacraments celebrated for the Catholic community, it must ask all who are chosen to exercise the priesthood in the Catholic Church to accept sacramental ordination in order to fulfill their ministry and be integrated into the apostolic succession.”
Cardinal Hume’s statement about Mgr.Leonard’s ordination is here:
http://www.angelfire.com/nj/malleus/hume_statement.html
Fr.Mark Woodruff, once an Anglican priest, now a Roman Catholic priest, has recently written of the gracious welcome extended by Cardinal Hume
When asked about the validity of Anglican Orders, Cardinal Hume stated that the position for Catholic teaching had moved on from Apostolicae Curae. Since then, he said, there had been new factors. These included (a) the participation of valid Old Catholic bishops from 1930 onwards from which all CofE episcopal ordinations by the 1990s derived; (b) the liturgical reforms in Anglicanism which had addressed criticism concerning the disputed form and intention of Anglican ordinations; (c) the new context for regarding ecclesiology within and beyond the Catholic Church as a result of Lumen Gentium and the Decree on Ecumenism (which states that the sacred actions of other Christian communites can engender a life of grace and provide access to the community of salvation). I can confirm . . . Cardinal Hume’s express words were that the doubt was no longer as to their validity, but their invalidity. But a prudent doubt remained and as a Catholic bishop his duty was to ensure that the faithful received sacraments about which there was NO doubt. So he asked us to accept this, not as a judgment on the past, but as a gift ‘in the fulness of time’ for what might be asked of us in the present and for the needs of the Church in the future. I found this graciousness and unbelievable generosity irresistible”
When we came to be ordained to the priesthood, however, we were humbled and thrilled to learn that Cardinal Hume had petitioned the CDW for a preface and prayer to be inserted into the ordination rite. It expressly thanks God for preceding Anglican ministry, noting that it derived from the Catholic Church to begin with, and asking for it to be brought to fruition. It was set for before the Litany and not, it should be noted, the ordination prayer itself. . . .
The rubrics are in Latin, but the spoken text was given in English. There appears not to have been a Latin original. Here is the text with the given punctuation and spellings:
Oratio ad gratias agendas pro ministerio ab electo in Communione anglicana expleto
Deinde mones surgunt. Episcopus, deposita mitra, stans manibus iunctis versus ad electum dicit:
N., the Holy Catholic Church recognizes that not a few of the sacred actions of the Christian religion as carried out in communities separated from her can truly engender a life of grace and can rightly be described as providing access to the community of salvation. And so we now pray.
Et omnes, per aliquod temporis spatium, silentio orant. Deinde, manus extensis, Episcopus orat dicens:
Almight Father, we give you thanks for the x years
of faithful ministry of your servant N. in the Anglican Communion [vel: in the Church of England],
whose fruitfullness for salvation has been derived
from the very fullness of grace and truth
entrusted to the Catholic Church.
As your servant has been received into full communion
and now weeks to be ordained to the presbyterate
in the Catholic Church,
we beseech you to bring to fruition that for which we now pray.
Through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
[Emphases mine, not Fr.Mark's]
Cardinal Hume’s graciousness continues with Benedict XVI: there is
no longer the repudiation of one’s former or odination, instead a recognition of graces received and engendered.
Regards
John U.K.
Well, Ed, you’ve obviosly made your mind up. As the Telegraph is now reporting:
“Fr Ed Tomlinson, vicar of St Barnabas, Tunbridge Wells, said that he would be following the lead of Bishop Hind.
“The ship of Anglicanism seems to be going down,” he said. “We should be grateful that a lifeboat has been sent.
“I shall be seeking to move to Rome. To stay in the Church of England would be suicide.”"
I hope you let your congregation know that tomorrow – unless of course they read it in the paper first!
We’ll see if you really mean it.
I am going to avoid press for a while! What I said was, that as the church of England is sinking, and as the pope has made such a generous gesture and a lifeboat has been sent…I shall TAKE HIS APPROACH VERY SERIOUSLY….so misquoted again. Truth is, as I commeted to many today, it is FAR too early to make decisions as we do not have details. Nonetheless it IS a day for rejoicing and sending the right noises and messages to the Holy Father.
Am happy to stand by what I say- not what I dont. Though I do feel this is a heaven sent opportunity and plan to explore it very thoroughly and with a sense of excitement